tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post5520665611263482078..comments2024-02-26T18:18:55.644+02:00Comments on Esser Agaroth (2¢): Debunking Israel's "Indigenous Argument" (Revised)Esser Agarothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-61549545866958116232019-07-30T11:44:30.381+03:002019-07-30T11:44:30.381+03:00Unknown,
I have just now revised this post, remov...Unknown,<br /><br />I have just now revised this post, removing any conclusion as to whether Jews are or are not indigenous to the Land of Israel. I would be interested in what you think now.<br /><br />It does not matter what the non-Jews think of us, or of Israel.<br /><br />It certainly does not matter what the <b><a href="https://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/2013/04/in-honor-of-uns-anniversary.html" rel="nofollow">United Nations</a></b> thinks of us.<br /><br />Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-51682575682822247632019-07-29T21:39:26.873+03:002019-07-29T21:39:26.873+03:00UN and international definition of indigenous list...UN and international definition of indigenous lists 5 characteristics, of which, jews satisfy each. Important is the formation of the culture on the land, language and spirituality distinct to the location, distinct socioeconomic form, special connections to the lands and natural resources, and the desire to reproduce the culture. The language is very specific and used in courts determining legal rights among ethnic groups. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649449264668207048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-52082174780291446442015-06-26T18:07:16.711+03:002015-06-26T18:07:16.711+03:00As I understand it, indigenous is based on who'...As I understand it, indigenous is based on who's first and not merely on how long -- it is based on the historical and cultural tie. <br /><br />Based on that, Rome just is not in the parsha.<br /><br />Bli neder, I will contact Yaakov.<br /><br />Thank you, and Good Shabbos!Daled Amoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646808702899584547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-59252244955808353762015-06-26T08:46:16.077+03:002015-06-26T08:46:16.077+03:00Yehudi Yerushalmi, Yaakov at yaakov7@hotmail.com ...Yehudi Yerushalmi, Yaakov at yaakov7@hotmail.com would like you to contact him.<br /><br />Jut passing on the message.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-34921893361353188452015-06-25T08:55:42.102+03:002015-06-25T08:55:42.102+03:00We can argue on the relevance of being "indig...We can argue on the relevance of being "indigenous", but I'm not sure we are defining the term in the same way.<br /><br />Your theoretical Canaanite would have a stronger claim than a Roman by virtue of his bond to the land through history and culture. But if that Canaanite would suddenly appear today, just what would that tie be after 3,000 years?<br /><br />As for the Roman, he does not draw his culture from Israel but from Rome. He can build aqueducts there all day long, he is building there but drawing anything from there. A Roman does not think about going there except as a tourist.<br /><br />Finally, talking the "indigenous argument" is not to desert the Torah and HaShem's bond with Bnei Yisrael. The starting point is still Rashi's peirush on the first pasuk in Bereishis.<br /><br />However the debate is not a purely theoretical one, but one with very real consequences. I have no problem with psukim to prove out right to Eretz Yisrael -- but at the same time I will use whatever arguments best make the point, dependent on the audience, whether they are Jews or non-Jews, people who deny Israel's right to exist or Jews who defend Israel's right but need help countering the onslaught of anti-Israel demonization.Daled Amoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646808702899584547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-74584743222385189592015-06-25T07:49:54.501+03:002015-06-25T07:49:54.501+03:001. Why not?
2. In both cases, I gave the conditio...1. Why not?<br /><br />2. In both cases, I gave the condition, if they had been here as long as us.<br /><br />The only connect the Jewish People have to the Land is because HaShem decided that we had a connection.<br /><br />Why aren't those arguing that we are indigenous talking about this?Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-52663654964818595212015-06-24T23:13:50.988+03:002015-06-24T23:13:50.988+03:00Based on the definition of indigenous as a matter ...Based on the definition of indigenous as a matter of culture and bond to the land:<br />1. I don't see that 3,000 later a claim by "Canaanites" would uproot the obvious tie to the land. If anything, what tie would your modern-day Canaanite have to the land today?<br /><br />2. Rome has zero claim or tie to the land -- what they built and their influence <i>on</i> the land is irrelevant. There have no bond with it.Daled Amoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646808702899584547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-68766701130606839362015-06-24T08:18:24.173+03:002015-06-24T08:18:24.173+03:00It seems to me that if the Canaanites were still h...It seems to me that if the Canaanites were still here, or better yet, if they were known, and they re-conquered the Land from us, then they would be hailed as the indigenous people, no?<br /><br />If the Romans were here as long as we had been here, then wouldn't they have a crack at being called indigenous, too? They built cities and infrastructure and temples, and their culture was influential in the area.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-5718090022232115822015-06-24T00:12:14.516+03:002015-06-24T00:12:14.516+03:00I do not know about _THE_ Indigenous Argument, but...I do not know about _THE_ Indigenous Argument, but the concept of being indigenous is not an issue of precedence but of connection to the land (on any of multiple levels), and in no way excludes the points made based above.Daled Amoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646808702899584547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-58065836293659668272015-06-23T21:44:51.053+03:002015-06-23T21:44:51.053+03:00Yehudi Yerushalmi,
Thanks for your comment.
You ...Yehudi Yerushalmi,<br /><br />Thanks for your comment.<br /><br />You wrote <i>(italics)</i>:<br /><i>I hate to nitpick, but the Meforshim say that after the Mabul, Eretz Yisrael including all of the land "MeEver HaNahar" was given to the descendants of Shem. And in fact, Avraham - according to most of the Meforshim - except the Ibn Ezra - was born in Charan.</i><br /><br />I don’t believe you’re nitpicking, since you are making points of Torah, and in the spirit of making sure that the Torah is presented accurately. :-)<br /><br />The “indigenous” arguers have focused on the second map, I posted, minus Reuben and Gad, and not the first, which more closely matches the point you make, Haran being outside of this area.<br /><br />Nevertheless, the “indigenous” argument leaves out important Torah-based points, including the ones you make, which are IMO the only points which count. It is an argument directed toward goyim and non-Torah knowledgeable/oriented Jews, in quintessential hasbara fashion. <br /><br /><i>Shem and Ever - as is known - already had established a Yeshivah in what was later to be Yerushalayim and were it's rulers.</i><br /><br />You, yourself, point out above that Eretz Yisra’el was given to the descendants of Shem, keyword, being “given,” which is completely in line with the comments I posted from RaSh”I.<br /><br />HaShem was, always has been, and always will be, in control of the lands changing hands.<br /><br />My issue with the indigenous argument, is that is ignores this, and my guess is that they are more interested in convincing goyim that Israel is ours, than convincing Jews to take the correct actions in order to make this the reality.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-48596122862990119602015-06-23T20:52:44.514+03:002015-06-23T20:52:44.514+03:00I hate to nitpick, but the Meforshim say that afte...I hate to nitpick, but the Meforshim say that after the Mabul, Eretz Yisrael including all of the land "MeEver HaNahar" was given to the descendants of Shem. And in fact, Avraham - according to most of the Meforshim - except the Ibn Ezra - was born in Charan.<br /><br />Shem and Ever - as is known - already had established a Yeshivah in what was later to be Yerushalayim and were it's rulers.<br /><br />It is only when Avraham "Made Aliyah" in Parshat לֶךְ-לְךָ that the Cna'anim first appeared and started a war with the rest of the descendants of Shem, conquering The Land. That is why Avraham did not want to tarry when he was in Shchem (The war was then in Shchem) as it says in the Passuk: <br /><br /> ו וַיַּעֲבֹר אַבְרָם, בָּאָרֶץ, עַד מְקוֹם שְׁכֶם, עַד אֵלוֹן מוֹרֶה; וְהַכְּנַעֲנִי, אָז בָּאָרֶץ.<br /><br />See the Meforshim on that Passuk (וְהַכְּנַעֲנִי, אָז בָּאָרֶץ) - that only then they first came into the land.<br /><br />Only later, when Avraham returned from Egypt, the Cna'anim were joined by the Prizi:<br /><br /> ז וַיְהִי-רִיב, בֵּין רֹעֵי מִקְנֵה-אַבְרָם, וּבֵין, רֹעֵי מִקְנֵה-לוֹט; וְהַכְּנַעֲנִי, וְהַפְּרִזִּי, אָז, יֹשֵׁב בָּאָרֶץ.<br /><br />(Perhaps it is Ma'ase Avot Siman Lebanim - Only when we started returning did the Arabs start immigrating in greater numbers than us )Yehudi Yerushalmihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14917865849403730511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-62167791821895832362015-06-23T19:23:08.504+03:002015-06-23T19:23:08.504+03:00Moshe,
I understand your argument about converts,...Moshe,<br /><br />I understand your argument about converts, but considering the long history of converts in Jewish history such as Onkelos, Shmaya and Avtalyon etc, I don't know that converts have historically been discriminated against to the degree that you suggest.<br /><br />I don't know if xtianity qualifies in terms of being indigenous, since they are a religion and not a people and have not demonstrated a <b>bond</b> to the extent Jews do. I may be wrong, but my impression is that their tie is more to places. <br /><br />After all, they did not leave because of being exiled, but because they went out to spread their word.Daled Amoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646808702899584547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-34280927356393541732015-06-23T18:43:05.965+03:002015-06-23T18:43:05.965+03:00The indigenous argument discriminates against the ...The indigenous argument discriminates against the convert and treats him or her like a second class Jew. <br />Can you have dual indigenous status?<br />Can there be other groups today in Israel that are indigenous?<br />The Bedouins are recognized by Israel and the world as indigenous to Israel.<br />Why did the indigenous argument not work when Hashem exiled us twice? "Hey Hashem! What are you thinking by exiling us? We are indigenous!"<br />The only reason we have a right to Israel is because of a CONDITIONAL PROMISE by Hashem and NOT because of an indigenous status!<br />The indigenous argument is a gateway for other groups including xtianity since xtianity is indigenous to Israel.<br />I can go on and on.Moshe Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18336968821236485550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-77542150598607023122015-06-23T18:39:09.016+03:002015-06-23T18:39:09.016+03:00Let us not forget that the indigenous argument iso...Let us not forget that the indigenous argument isolates the convert and makes him a second class Jew. Let us also not forget that in Judaism "indigenous rights does not secure the land. If that was the case why did we not argue with Hashem "hey, listen you can not put us in exile! we are indigenous!". The only reason we have any right to Israel is because of a CONDITIONAL PROMISE by Hashem. When we as a nation break those conditions and Hashem has enough try to present the indigenous argument to him.Moshe Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18336968821236485550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32118121.post-36849287441264683172015-06-23T17:46:29.724+03:002015-06-23T17:46:29.724+03:00I think the "Indigenous Argument" holds ...I think the "Indigenous Argument" holds and augments what you write.<br /><br />I have posted that Jews are indigenous to Eretz Yisrael based on a post I read on Israellycool ("<a href="http://www.israellycool.com/2015/05/09/its-not-an-argument" rel="nofollow">It’s Not An Argument</a>"):<br /><br /><i>...In fact it’s a fact the Jewish people ARE indigenous to the land of Israel – science in the forms of archaeology, genetics and basic history have all confirmed it.</i><br /><br /><i>...You go as far back as you need to to find the cultural genesis, the creation of a language and religion and other signifiers. If these two gentlemen had bothered to do some basic research (that would have taken far less than the half hour they cited earlier) they would find two important facts. 1. Indigenous status has no statute of limitations. <b>2. Indigenous status is not about being somewhere first, it’s about the genesis of culture and tradition on an ancestral land more than anything else.</b></i><br /><br />This is supported by sources quoted by Wikipedia (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples" rel="nofollow">Indigenous Peoples</a>):<br /><br /><i>...those groups especially protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and their cultural or historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1]</i><br /><br /><i>The use of the term peoples [as in the Jewish People?] in association with the indigenous is derived from the 19th century anthropological and ethnographic disciplines that Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines as "a body of persons that are united by a common culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, which typically have common language, institutions, and beliefs, and often constitute a politically organized group".[7]</i> <br /><br />This bond between Jews and the Land of Eretz Yisrael is predicated on the Torah and is illustrated by the unbroken history of Jews on the land and the ties maintained even by those in Galus.<br /><br />Daled Amoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646808702899584547noreply@blogger.com