So, I see this post from someone I think I may becoming friends with. He wants to make aliyah, that is, to immigrate to Israel, and make his home here...
"Chabad Sukkot are the only places where you'll see girls in booty shorts shake a lulav and etrog. And she isn't getting screamed at."Here are my Esser Agaroth ("two cents")...
That's because Chabba"d needs to get its priorities straight.Then later, I wrote...
Filling up the "mitzvah piggy bank" until it reaches some sort of superstitious, critical mass, should not be one of them. And, Chabba"d isn't the only culprit on this front.
This concept has only existed for about 500 yrs. It's absent from the Ramba"m, which Chabba"dniks tout and learn. But, since they AND everyone else loves to project their hashqafah (pre-existing point of view) onto every source (and onto every non-source) to prove their point.
Women are exempt for the misswoth of Lulav and Sukkah. (Ramba"m, Hil. Sukkah 6:1, Hil. Lulav 7:18).
So, the next time you see women taking up space in a sukkah, preventing the men, waiting outside to come in, to fulfill their obligation, maybe blame Chabba"d.
Worse yet, when the Chabba"d ladies take up space in a public sukkah, in order to do their "important mitzvah work," of giving a woman the opportunity to do something she is exempt from doing, they may actually be preventing a man from entering the sukkah to eat, who might normally not be concerned about it.
After all, this man sees that there isn't any room for him to sit down. Not cool.
I know, I know... You'll be calling me "The Grinch Who Stole Sukkos," soon enough.
Whatever...
Stop playing with ghetto boys, get your degree or whatever the hell you're doing there, and get on the plane!I wonder how much flack I will get from THAT comment.
Awww - Grinch, indeed. If you throw all the girls out of the Sukkah every time, you lose a lot of great Shidduch opportunities. Ever thought of that? ;)
ReplyDeleteAnd, while women are not obligated in time-bound mitzvot such as Sukkah and Lulav, they nevertheless are permitted to do them as voluntary mitzvot, Sephardic women without the Berachah, Ashkenazi women even with Berachah. So, don't you dare to steal my voluntary-mitzvah-bonus-points just because you're claustrophobic, hah! Comes to that, so far, I've never seen a Sukkah with hungry and desperate men lining up outside to get in because of over-eager ladies that took up all the room - neither in Israel nor in Chu"l. Thank G-d, most public Sukkot are rather spacious. And if you're worried that you might somehow encounter this kind of problem at home, well, maybe it's time to get a bigger Sukkah, man... Mo'adim le'Simchah. Tzipora
Hi, Tzipora! Thanks for taking the time to visit and to leave a comment.
ReplyDeleteAwww - Grinch, indeed. If you throw all the girls out of the Sukkah every time, you lose a lot of great Shidduch opportunities. Ever thought of that? ;)
My only surprise here is that you didn't try to throw around R' Moshe Feinstein's ztz"l name like everyone else does on this issue, because he happened to go to a mixed weddking,...once. ;-)
Never mind...
Well, I was definitely not "targeting" women like you, who 1) know the difference between voluntary and obligatory, and who are sensitive to this, 2) who are modest, and who are examples that modesty doesn't equal oppressed, marginalized, dumbed down, or "silenced" 3) are "doers" and not dependent on Mashi'ah to come and do all the work 4) and also happen to be excellent writers. :-)
I hope that all came out right.
I was targeting a particular approach to qiruv with priorities thrown out the window, by misguided and/or "practitioners of forbidden worship." ;-)
Stay tuned for a post with which I think you will agree! :-)
this is really shallow considering many things
ReplyDelete1) who said space is ever an issue, according to a statement (which we learn a lot of halachot from) it says all of the jewish people should be under one sukkah
2) women arent obligated, but arent excluded
3) you essentially created an issue to have with chabad; space is not an issue, and you quote a halacha from rambam which does not prove anything towards your final point, additionally you seem to forget that you also project whatever our own hashkafa is on rambam as well
4) the Lubavitcher Rebbe has the same sources of halacha as you do, and i will venture to say he has a better grasp on these sources that you do, yet he did not make this into an issue, so where do you come from making a stink about this
5) what mitzvah piggy bank are you reffering to? rambam clearly states that you must view the world as half good and evil, adn that your mitzva will tip the scale, ergo every perosn must do a miztvah at any point they can to tip the scale, exemption doesnt mean its not a mizva
First off, thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.
ReplyDelete1) who said space is ever an issue, according to a statement (which we learn a lot of halachot from) it says all of the jewish people should be under one sukkah
a. Um,...we don't paskin halakha according to agaddata,...and you didn't cite the source. That's how the halakhic process works Stat the source (like I did), so we can see how it stands up to scrutiny. :-/
You may be surprised...as halakhic reason (ie. Jewish reasoning) is not always so compatible with Western thinking, as many of us were made to believe as kids in galuth.
b. I'll give you a hint...Do you know to what this source is referring when it says "All of Israel?" It's not as simple as you think. Again, I'm applying the halakhic process, not the "feeling-oriented," Western logic many of us (even the very frum) grew up with in galuth.
2) women arent obligated, but arent excluded
Agreed. There's no stirah between this statement and my post. The source I provide, says exactly this.
3) you essentially created an issue to have with chabad;
Correct.
space is not an issue, and you quote a halacha from rambam which does not prove anything towards your final point,
How so?? In a crowded sukkah, at home, in a schul, in a restaurant, women should show consideration for the men who are obligated. Women who do not know better, who are just learning or just even developing a Jewish identity, etc. should NOT be kicked out of anything. Better for them to have a positive experience, and the men should just wait, or find another opinion temporarily (in the public arena). At a private meal, Tziporah is right. A larger sukkah should have been prepared additionally you seem to forget that you also project whatever our own hashkafa is on rambam as well
4) the Lubavitcher Rebbe has the same sources of halacha as you do, and i will venture to say he has a better grasp on these sources that you do, yet he did not make this into an issue, so where do you come from making a stink about this
5) what mitzvah piggy bank are you reffering to? rambam clearly states that you must view the world as half good and evil, adn that your mitzva will tip the scale, ergo every perosn must do a miztvah at any point they can to tip the scale, exemption doesnt mean its not a mizva
My whole is twofold:
1. Those who are exempt from a misswah need to be supportive of those who are obligated to a misswah, just like a husband makes time to escort his wife to the miqwah, once a month, or takes care of the kids or other tasks the wife needs done for the sake of this misswah, upon her mid'Oraita, a knowledgeable woman should support men in fulfilling their obligations.
2. The "misswah piggybank" I mention is not about doing misswoth and building them up; it's about doing misswoth and then just sitting around, waiting for Mashi'ah to do all the work.
Of course, the Lubavitch Rebbe z"l knew more halakha than I. But, what about the censorship of his work? His statements regarding going up onto Har HaBayit are all conveniently "missing," except for a few Yiddish copies. Good luck finding them.
Furthermore, I believe that many of these Chabba"d ladies who often treat ba'alei tshuvah like children, believe they can explain halakha to them, even though that's a man's job, and see even every other non-Chabba"d, frum person as a potential ba'al tshuvah, need to get their priorities straight. I question whether they have the Rebbe's agenda in mind, or their own.
How have I projected my hashqafah onto the Ramba"m?
Even you stated that women are exempt from sukkah.
Hag Same'ah!