Monday, July 05, 2010

Loyalty To The State?

25 of the Fourth Month 5770

MK Rotem: Citizenship Requires Loyalty To State
Israel National News Flash, 16 Tammuz 5770/28 June 2010

Knesset Constitution Commettee Chairman, MK David Rotem (Israel Our Home), said in response to the revelation of as Israeli Arab terror cell that murdered a Jewish taxi driver, “Again we see that there are citiens who adopt radical Muslim ideology in order to carry out terror attacks within Israel. The group that murered taxi driver Yafim Weinstein, carried out a number of assaults on Jews, Christians and een Muslims who they did not consider extreme enough.”

“Let us not forget, these are Israel citizens, that have Israel identity cards in their pockets and enjoy allowances and benefits of the Israel taxpayer. This is a cynical exploitation of the rights of an Israeli citizen. This illustrates and emphasizes the need for adopting the bill that I submitted that will tighten the connection between loyalty to the country and citizenship.” Rotem added.

Loyalty to the State? Hold on a minute. What happens when the next, major conflict between Torah and State rears its head?

On which side will your loyalties lie?

I certainly have gratitude to the State,...for providing various services. But, hey, I pay taxes for those services, just as I would pay a fee to any private company.

I have gratitude to the IDF soldiers who keep Jews safe,...most of the time, and when the “powers that be” allow it. I do NOT have any loyalty whatsoever to the State's lacky generals and officers who execute orders to throw Jews out of their homes, and turn over parts our Homeland to goyim. And I most certainly do NOT have any loyalty to the puppet “rabbis” who condone, if not order such actions! Rabbis, indeed!

How could one even consider being 100 percent “loyal” to such an entity? -- an entity which orders unnecessary autopsies, sends out social workers to encourage secular indoctrination, and through its courts, rules that the Rabbanuth must certify treif meat as kosher.

But, MK Rotem is targeting Arabs,...as far as we know. So, how could I have a problem with that?

My problem is with who could be next on the list to be targeted.

Haredim? Hey, NO ONE likes riots in Jerusalem, anyway, right? They disrupt traffic and waste a great deal of money cleaning up after them! It may be OK, for a spoiled, secular, rich kid to use daddy's connections to get an exemption from army service. But when a Haredi kid does it, that's just hutzpah!

Who's next after them?

Settlers? Not the “loyal” settlers, like from Ofra and Alon Sh'vuth, of course. Just those trouble-making “fanatics” and “extremists” from places like Yitzhar, K'far Tapu'ah, and the Hevron Hills.

Then who's next?

What about Jews who legally purchased land from Arabs, like in Havath Gil'ad? Yep. They will also be targets, having the hutzpah to refuse to do what Big Brother tells them to do.

And what about you? --future immigrants to Israel? Will you have to sign your “Declaration of Loyalty to the State” at JFK or LAX before you are even allowed on the plane?

Let us be wary of such laws. The second that such a law is passed, alledgedly with Arabs in mind, the far-left will jump at the chance to test it in court against Jews. After all, Israel is a democracy, in which all citizens are treated equally. Yeah, right!

And think about it. When the far-left first noticed MK Rotem's proposal, or perhaps even orchestrated it, maybe using it against Jews was what they had in mind in the first place.

To show just how absurd this law is, here is a video clip from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix." In this clip, a "loyalist" teacher begins to question the loyalty of other teachers toward the Ministry of Magic. Many believe that JK Rowling was making a satirical reference to the British government. I do not recall if she actually said so herself.

Fast foward to time marker 6:55. Enjoy!

11 comments:

Vox Populi said...

What is troubling here is that you seem to have no problem with these loyalty oaths if they are, in fact, confined to Arab Israelis.

Ben-Yehudah said...

Actually, I do have a problem with it, as it avoids dealing with the real issue at hand, and just puts a pseudo-band-aid on it:

Goyim have no rights to citizenship of any kind, until we have certain factors fulfilled, allowing for the implementation of the status of "Ger Toshav."

Until then the halacha (Ramba"m who addresses these issues) is pretty clear: No avodah zarah in the Land (eg. Christians, Hindus, etc.) and no enemies of the Jewish People in the land. The halacha does not entertain the notion of innocent civilians in time of "obligatory wars." This is a Western concept (one which the U. S. ignores anyway when it comes to themselves). The entire people are given one status or another.

Vox Populi said...

>Goyim have no rights to citizenship of any kind, until we have certain factors fulfilled, allowing for the implementation of the status of "Ger Toshav."

How do you know that the factors haven't already been fulfilled or that the modern notion of citizenship is dependent on Hilchot Ger Toshav?

>The halacha does not entertain the notion of innocent civilians in time of "obligatory wars."

How do you know you're fighting an obligatory war?

>Until then the halacha (Ramba"m who addresses these issues) is pretty clear: No avodah zarah in the Land (eg. Christians, Hindus, etc.) and no enemies of the Jewish People in the land.

Doesn't the Meiri say that Christians and Muslims are not ovdei avodah zara?

Ben-Yehudah said...

First off, even if we had Ger Toshav now, the Arabs would certainly not qualify.

Before I get into the other issues, please identify your religious, Torah observance, and gender.

Feel free to do so privately.

In the mean time, consider this.

We must separate from both Esau and Yishma'el....Kor HaTor.

Vox Populi said...

I'm an Orthodox Jewish guy. What does my gender have to do with anything?

Ben-Yehudah said...

Ger Toshav?

See Ramba"m Hil. Avodah Zarah 10:9. We only accept gerei toshav in the time when Yovel ils in place.

That being said, we may not be too far off from this time.

However, I believe that we have a lot more pressing matters to attendto before worrying about which goyim may live here. Let's work on getting our own people here first, among others issues, like unity, and Torah observance.

Obligatory war? Well, I certainly do not expect you to accept this but..."Look around you" (Rav David Bar Hayim). I will look [in my spare time] for the halachic description, probably in Hil. Helachim uMilhamothehem.

Gender? :-) Perhaps we'll talk sometime. Are you in Israel?

Speaking of women knowledgeable in halacha...this excellent and to the point post from Lamrot Hakol to answer part of your question re: avodah zarah and Christianity. It should also be the beginning of your answer re: the Me'iri,...a poseq popularly thrown around as he fits the "feels" of modern Western society.

We can "talk" about him sometime, too, perhaps.

Funny how many (don't know about you) who refute the Ramba"m's ruling say that he was talking about his time period, knowledge of the Crusades, etc. Many also claim that the Christians of Talmudic period are "not the same" as now.

Yet, only their methods have changed. They're the same tricky Edomites, represented by the pig in Parashath Shemi'mi,...the animal whose limbs are kasher but mouth/insides are not,...the liars.

Ben-Yehudah said...

Here is the beginning of the description of a milhemeth misswah:

הלכות מלכים ומלחמות פרק ה
ה,א אין המלך נלחם תחילה, אלא על מלחמת מצוה. ואיזו היא מלחמת מצוה--זו מלחמת שבעה עממים, ומלחמת עמלק, ועזרת ישראל מצר שבא עליהם. ואחר כך נלחם במלחמת הרשות--והיא המלחמה שנלחם עם שאר העמים, כדי להרחיב גבול ישראל ולהרבות בגדולתו ושמעו.

ה,ב מלחמת מצוה--אינו צריך ליטול בה רשות בית דין, אלא יוצא מעצמו בכל עת, וכופה העם לצאת. אבל מלחמת הרשות--אינו מוציא העם בה, אלא על פי בית דין של שבעים ואחד.

Vox Populi said...

>See Ramba"m Hil. Avodah Zarah 10:9. We only accept gerei toshav in the time when Yovel ils in place.

Which is fine, but I think you've unnecessarily divided people into Jews, gerei toshav and goyim. I'm not sure why you feel the modern notion of citizenship is precluded by Halachah only discussing gerei tzedek and gerei toshav.

Especially considering that the people in question, Arabs, are neither Amaleikim nor members of the Shiv'ah Amim.

>However, I believe that we have a lot more pressing matters to attendto before worrying about which goyim may live here. Let's work on getting our own people here first, among others issues, like unity, and Torah observance.

I would argue that it's really the most immediate pressing problem we have. The question of Arab citizenship is what underlies the current demographic problem. At the time when Israel controls more Arabs than Jews (or even close), Israel will be perilously close to either being voted out of existence or being threatened externally.

Conversely, I don't see it likely that you're going to get the entire population of Israel even close to being religious in that time frame. Maybe when Mashiach comes, but we don't know when that will happen, and by then the question would be moot. On the other hand, there are projections for when the demographic threat will be critical, and it's very soon.

>Obligatory war? Well, I certainly do not expect you to accept this but..."Look around you" (Rav David Bar Hayim).

I saw your Rambam quote below as well. This is all fine and good, but I don't see from this that Israel's current situation with the Arabs is a milchemet mitzvah. I'm assuming you agree that they are not Ameleikim or members of the 7, so I assume you're including them in the category of "tzar she'ba aleihem". But this category is too vague - does it include any "enemy" (what is an enemy?) - no matter how little of a threat it actually poses? Does it apply to Israeli-Arabs as well as Palestinians? Is there a point at which Israel would cease to be in a milchemet mitzvah?

Also, I'm not sure your interpretation of the Rambam necessarily jives with history. There were many times when bnei yisrael were oppressed, or when Eretz Yisrael faced invasion or raids - were they all milchemet mitzvah as well?

Ben-Yehudah said...

Unnecessarily? Besides, I didn't do it... HaShem did. After that, Haza”l clarifies it. The Torah is all about separation and differentiation. Even when we have gerei toshav, not more than three families may live together. Do you know why? More than three would constitue a neighborhood, and they will hae more influence on Jews. Even though they are the “good goyim,” in every respect, we still may not allow them to have undo influence on us. It's supposed to be the other way around. One of the concerns as well, is that we may marry them.

Furthermore, make sure you are learning uncensored versions of the Talmud and the Ramba”m. For example, Aku”m is not a term which Haza”l applied as a general term for goyim. Haza”l used goy, nokhri (the Christians most definitely did not like that term), ben no'ah, and ger toshav.

Who says that Arabs are neither Amaleqim or from Shiv'ath Ha'Amim? There are various opinions that say that they have the status of one or the other.

(I am afraid I do not have the sources handy, which you are certainly entitled to.)

You are technically correct about a “demographic” problem, regardless of the debate amongst demographers. However, I believe that it would be more precise to say that we have Torah problem.

I think you need to review the Ramba”m's description of milhemeth misswah. Did you miss this part? ועזרת ישראל מצר שבא עליהם

I believe we are in such a state. They are a constant threat. Thus we are supposed to dispossess the enemy from our land, whether you believe that the misswah to dispossess the inhabitants at the end of Sefer Bamidbar is applicable today and to the Arabs or not. As a practical matter, we saw in 1967 that many Arabs accepted the Jewish sovereignty, at least for a time. This is what the Arabs in their culture understand, strength. (Even Islam allows for temporarily ceasing from attempts to conquer, if apparently impossible during a given time period.)

There are no “innocent civilians.” The status of enemy is on the entire people in question, not just the leadership. “Innocent civilians” comes from a hypocritical West.

There are no such things as Palestinians. There may be separate subgroups, but they are all Yishma'el. UN drawn lines are meaningless.

Ben-Yehudah said...

Unnecessarily? Besides, I didn't do it... HaShem did. After that, Haza”l clarifies it. The Torah is all about separation and differentiation. Even when we have gerei toshav, not more than three families may live together. Do you know why? More than three would constitue a neighborhood, and they will hae more influence on Jews. Even though they are the “good goyim,” in every respect, we still may not allow them to have undo influence on us. It's supposed to be the other way around. One of the concerns as well, is that we may marry them.

Furthermore, make sure you are learning uncensored versions of the Talmud and the Ramba”m. For example, Aku”m is not a term which Haza”l applied as a general term for goyim. Haza”l used goy, nokhri (the Christians most definitely did not like that term), ben no'ah, and ger toshav.

Who says that Arabs are neither Amaleqim or from Shiv'ath Ha'Amim? There are various opinions that say that they have the status of one or the other.

(I am afraid I do not have the sources handy, which you are certainly entitled to.)

You are technically correct about a “demographic” problem, regardless of the debate amongst demographers. However, I believe that it would be more precise to say that we have Torah problem.

I think you need to review the Ramba”m's description of milhemeth misswah. Did you miss this part? ועזרת ישראל מצר שבא עליהם

I believe we are in such a state. They are a constant threat. Thus we are supposed to dispossess the enemy from our land, whether you believe that the misswah to dispossess the inhabitants at the end of Sefer Bamidbar is applicable today and to the Arabs or not. As a practical matter, we saw in 1967 that many Arabs accepted the Jewish sovereignty, at least for a time. This is what the Arabs in their culture understand, strength. (Even Islam allows for temporarily ceasing from attempts to conquer, if apparently impossible during a given time period.)

There are no “innocent civilians.” The status of enemy is on the entire people in question, not just the leadership. “Innocent civilians” comes from a hypocritical West.

There are no such things as Palestinians. There may be separate subgroups, but they are all Yishma'el. UN drawn lines are meaningless.

Ben-Yehudah said...

As far as history goes, this is the first time in almost 2000 years when Israel has had autonomy in its own land. Whether such attacks and threats are milhemeth misswah is irrelevant. I'm sure I do not have to tell you that even soldiers going out on Shabbath to fight back these attacks may carry back their weapons on Shabbath. This teaches the importance of such actions.

I recommend Rav Bar Hayim's shi'urim on these matters, found at machonshilo.org. He is way more equipped than I to answer your questions of halacha, and explain them thoroughly.

At the risk of sounding like a cop out, I simply do not have the sources which you are entitled to at the tip of my tongue, nor the skills of explanation.

Before you suggest that perhaps that means I should not post on such matters, I will simply suggest that you begin posting on the blog I saw that you had, and perhaps you will convince me of your opinions in the future.

The left who insists we [ignore history and the Tana”kh] and try harder “to get along,” are, in reality, trying to put the Arabs into a Western box. Some are either very naive. Some believe that Arabs should adopt Western culture, as it is intheir minds the superior culture.

Jews are neither Western nor Eastern. We are independent and central, taking on the wisdom of the goyim as it is seen as helpful an complementary. Western Jews crossed this line long ago, thus the pitfalls of galuth for 2000 years.

I sense that you still have many Western ideas confused with Torah. Jews are to go by the Torah (to the best of our abilities), not by Western sensibilities, which are not necessarily compatible with Torah. This is one of the fundamental errors of religious [Ashkinazy] Jews in America across the spectrum, not just modern orthodox. Please correct me, if I have misjudged the message you are trying to get across.

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