Tuesday, June 28, 2011

The Battles Between The Torah And The State Of Israel Continue

27 of the Third Month 5771

The Religious Zionist community has been outraged by yesterday's arrest of Rabbi Dov Lior shlit"a (Hevron-Qiriyath Arba) for questioning.

Rabbi Zalman Melamed (Beth El) condemned the arrest, saying...
“Rabbi Lior Shlita’s arrest, more than it affects his dignity or that of Torah, detracts from the dignity of the State of Israel and even more so, of the police and prosecution,” he said, adding “A police force that arrests a great rabbi because of his agreement with a book – an arrest that in no way helps the police gain any new knowledge – is a shameful and despicable act that besmirches the police, the prosecution, and all who had the ability to prevent it and did not do so, be they in the Ministry for Public Security or the Ministry of Justice.”

“I have two words for these people: for shame!”
Known mamlakhti (undying State loyalist) Rabbi Ya’akov Ariel (Ramat Gan) stated that this was not a matter for the police.
(IsraelNN.com) “It is no secret that I oppose the book and I think Rav Dov Lior should not have given the approbation [to it]," Rav Ariel told Arutz Sheva in Hebrew, but that is another plane: an internal Halakhic one. Even if this or another Halakhic edict is wrong, it is no police matter. [The authorities] could have turned to the Chief Rabbinate and it could have published an opinion disavowing the Halakhic soundness of The King’s Torah"
Mamlakhti rabbis from the Tzohar organization joined in condemning the arrest, even though they too often disagree with the rulings of rabbis like Rabbi Lior.

Members of K'nesseth (MK) from the National Union, Jewish Home,and Sha"S Parties also condemned the arrest.

Yesha Council Chairman Danny Dayan pointed out the double standards at play here.
(IsraelNN.com) “Did the police arrest the lecturer from Ben Gurion University who called to break the necks of the celebrants of Jerusalem Day? Are there investigations against other leftists who incite against the State of Israel on a daily basis?”
It seems as though the mamlakhtim are concerned about rabbinical autonomy, even though they are often the defenders of the Israel Government's policies which contradict Torah Law.

Members of the Sha"S Sefardi Religious party must also be wondering who will be next andc how long their spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef shlit"a's ties with members of the politically-correct Labor Party will continue to keep him insulated from similar persecution.

But, with all these illusions of Ahduth Yisrael (Jewish Unity) presented before us, many in the Religious Zionist camps have still missed the point.

The Federation of Higher Yeshivas, an organization not unwilling to criticize the government, chimed in.
(IsraelNN.com) “a sage and yeshiva head has been publicly shamed.” It decried attempts “to block freedom of opinion and rabbinical halakhic rulings.”

The Hesder Yeshivas Federation expressed shock at the arrest and called it “an offense to the Torah and its students and an attempt to block rabbis’ freedom of expression through severe, unacceptable and anti-democratic means.”
The Rabbi Melamed, Rabbi Ariel, the Tzohar rabbis, and the Federation of Higher Yeshivas all avoid the most important point in the conflict. They use "democratic"/Western logic to defend their position, not Torah logic.

Their same logic also defends the rights of the left to call for removal of Jews from their homes, and the turning of Jewish land over to Arabs. Their logic also defends calls from the Left to use violence against the residents of certain Jewish towns in Yehudah & Shomron (Judea & Samaria).

There is a right and a wrong. Why are they so afraid to say it? They afraid of frightening Jews away from Torah, so they hold back. They "good intentions" cause them to use logic which they believe the masses can understand and accept better than the ultimate truth, the Torah.

Yigal Walt comes much closer to understanding the real conflict here, more than the Federation of Higher Yeshivas, or any of the other community leaders who have condemned the arrest of Rabbi Lior.
(YNETNEWS.com) The hundreds of religious rightist protesters who blocked the entrance to Jerusalem, burned tires in the capital’s streets and raided the Supreme Court, made their views clear: The Torah, as they interpret it, takes precedence over law and order. Israeli courts have sent a former president to jail and are currently hearing a case against our former prime minister, but a rabbi is above the law, we are now told.
The true conflict emerging in Israel is the conflict between the Torah and the State.

Walt may come closer to understanding this, but he still misses the boat.

The Torah does not take precedence over law and order; the Torah IS law and order.

"as they interpret it" - is Walt's way of denigrating Torah interpretation according to halakhic sources. He appears to be more comfortable Torah interpretation according to feelings and the sentiments of Western Golah (exile). There is just one problem with this. That kind of Torah "interpretation" is not Torah, and thus not Jewish.

I have written this so many times, I will no doubt sound like the broken record of the beating of a dead horse.

We Jews must make up our minds. Do we want to live in a Jewish State? Or do we want to live in a State where the Torah, and thus Judaism, is being continually picked away?

When are we Religious Zionists finally going to accept that we cannot have our cake and eat it, too. We can have the Torah or an anti-Torah state, but not both.

The conflict between the two becomes greater with the passing of everyday. I pray that we make up our minds soon, before it is too late.


David Tzohar said...

Harav Kook ZTZL .said that Medinat Yisrael will be the foundation of schinat Hashem in this world. We must respect the institutions of the State This is more than "dina demalchuta dina" because the mamlacha is the expression of the sovereignty of
Hashem. (see Rav Tau SHLITA-le'emunat iteinu) By weakening the institutions of the state we will only be putting more obstacles in the path of the final redemption.

Esser Agaroth said...

David, Thank you for taking the time to write.

1. Regarding "dina demalchuta dina" I do not believe that this concept is even shayach here in Eretz Yisrael with a non-Jewish-oriented government yet from Yisrael. Even during Roman and Ottoman times, we observed their various laws for piqu'ah nefesh.

2. "dina demalchuta dina" appears in the Bavli, and is completely absent in the Yerushalmi. In the Bavli it's application is only applied to taxes in hu"l. The issue is that to exempt a Talmid Hacham for such taxes (paying them for him), they needed to decide how to determine who had this status as a Talmid Hacham. Clearly this concept is thrown around way too much. Here in Eretz Yisrael, it is nothing more than an artifact of our Galuth mentality.

3. If I am wrong, how is that some Rabbeim (eg. Rabbi Avraham Shapira ztz"l, Rabbi Lior, Rabbi Zalman Melamed) told student to refuse anti-Torah orders to remove Jews from their homes and give land over to goyim? IOW, he asked Why was it ok for this, and not other laws which promote Torah violations, such as disallowing Rabbis to speak about halakha simply because such halakhoth are in contradiction to State law?

4. Rabbeinu Tzvi Yehuda, for example, said that one must do everything to prevent and delay the dismantling of Jewish strongholds. He himself went to Shavei Shomron to do so.

5. "more than dina demalchuta dina" an expression of HaShem. How so? I certainly believe that HaShem was involved in our various victories, and in establishing [potential] Jewish sovereignty over Eretz Yisrael. This is why I say Hallel (w/Berakhoth) on 5 Iyyar and 28 Iyyar, not for the state in and of itself. What does that have to do with a State which passes more and more anti-Torah laws everyday? For more information on Hallel for these dates, see Hallel YA & YY: Is There Something To Celebrate? and Do We Say Hallel On 3 Iyyar?.

6. Sinath Hinam? I would be interested in a source for this, so that I may study the context. There are at least 5 rasha'im in this country. I hate them. That's not sinath hinam. That's sinah b'kewanna. Everyone else I happy to accept that they are tinoq shenishba. Yet, it is not for us to stand idly by and allow them to do the damage that they are doing to the rest of Am Yisrael, Torath Yisrael, and Eretz Yisrael.

David Tzohar said...

If I would have thought that you were a black hatted Chareidi, there would be no point in continuing this discussion. After seeing your profile it seems that you and I are from a very similar background and are presently on opposite sides of the "Mamalachti"-Chardali" divide.
IMHO eleh vaeleh divrei elokim chayyim.
I agree that Dina demalchuta is not applicable today. I emphasized that the imperative to be part of the State and respect its institutions and laws come from a different place entirely,from the realization that the Zionist movement and the state which bchasdei Hashem has established "kommemiut leartzeinu".is worthy of our support True,most of our leaders are "kofrim",but if Hashem wants to bring Geulah al yedei kofrim who are we to say we are not part of this Geulah. This is not only the torah of Rav Tau but of Rav Tzvi Yehudah and Ha Raaya Kook before him.

Esser Agaroth said...

Yes, I think that you accurately described the two of us.

I will simply add a few points: Rav Teichtel also teaches that the non-religious have some merit for having built up the land, but not to worry. Their control over the Land will only be temporarily. True, this is the standard view. I simply appreciate how he leaves this open for Torah adherent Jews to fill the void.

Rav Kook and Rav Tzvi Yehudah are not the same person, not in the least. I believe it is an error to think that learning Torato shel HaRav Kook may only come from his son, and now, only from those associated with Rav Tau, Rav Druckman, and Shlomo Aviner. (You did not say this, but many believe this.)

The work of Rav Tzvi Yehudah's students such as Rav Moshe Tzuriel being banned at Merkav HaRav, and then almost magically being allowed after certain rabbis leave Merkaz is disturbing, as is the almost magical discovery of many kitvei HaRav Kook in the Merkaz geniza after said rabbis have left.

I suppose there is nothing more to discuss on this issue except to agree to disagree. I don't know.

I will simply add that I see the State as providing me services, which I appreciate. In turn, I pay taxes, and I vote, and I appreciate the IDF, in general, for protecting our borders, which is a misswah. However, this is not the only way this misswah can be performed.

I intend to continue to criticize the government, the IDF, and "rabbis" whenever they place for placing human law above Torah Law, yet fail to provide halakhic sources which do not hold up to scrutiny.

Devorah Chayah said...

What can you do when people can clearly see with their own eyes, and yet still fail to understand.

It's like a kind of brain-washing. Poeple are all invested in this faulty worldview and are simply unwilling to re-evaluate their position in light of present realities.

AV 5765 was the clearest sign yet that the Erev Rav regime is evil through and through and it is nothing more than a curtain hiding the development of the emerging Kingdom of Israel as the Maharal explained. JEWS DO NOT EXPEL JEWS. But the Erev Rav do!

The current ruling regime is klipot-peels-that will fall away when the fruit hidden inside is fully ripened and ready to consume.

WARNING! What terrible thing will Hashem have to allow them to carry out next that will convince the good, but clueless Jews, once and for all where their true allegiance lies?

Esser Agaroth said...

Devash, your guess is as good as mine!

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