Tuesday, September 03, 2013

Christian Soup Follow-Up

כ"ט לחודש השישי תשע"ג

Vandalism of the posters in the Shomron (Samaria) warning of the dangers of the practitioners of avodah zarah (foreign/forbidden worship), poluting the Holy Land, and attempting to pick off souls one by one.
(Photo Credit: Schlein)
One may suppose that this is representative of the general sentiments regarding the "attack" on the Christian "volunteers" in the area.

But, whoever vandalized these warning posters failed to notice one very crucial element.

They vandalized pesuqim (verses) from the Torah.

What does that say about the perpetrators?

My guess is that the specific pesuqim destroyed will provide us with the clues to determine exactly which of the above these individuals were:

...וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע, מִקִּרְבֶּךָ. (דברים יג,ו)
"So you that you keep the evil from your midst." (Deut.13:6) 

...כִּי הַשֹּׁחַד יְעַוֵּר עֵינֵי חֲכָמִים, וִיסַלֵּף דִּבְרֵי צַדִּיקִם. (דברים טז,יט)
 "...for a gift blinds the eyes of the wise, and perverts the words of the righteous." (Deut.16:19)

So, the culprits would appear to be those who are unwilling to keep evil away from their midst, or those who are unable to recognize the evil in their midst, due to blindness and perversion.

I'll let you connect the dots yourselves.

46 comments:

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Just another proof that Zionism is not Judaism: Both grab the heels of different replacement idols. Or did you think Shomron governor Mesika, who brings these xtians in, turns to Washington senators for help because he thinks Hashem is King?

Goldie ZP said...

Oh my! It is these very xtian missionaries carrying this out. Any religious Yid (no matter if he is in cohorts - out of ignorance, no seqel - would wipe out words from our Torah).

How sad indeed that the xtian goyim do this - they have no clue what the spiritual repercussions of their deeds will do to them.

Esser Agaroth said...

Thanks, Goldie ZP,

I certainly hope that you are right.

And, if not, may your words serve as an example that someone out there is still giving them the benefit of the doubt, and that should encourage them (and all of us) to work on teshuvah.

Shy Guy said...

Don't get me wrong but if they were Jews, they have a convenient halachic authority to rely on.

:)

That's not the only one. Eiyain b'sheh'eilot u'tshuvot Harav Google. There are opinions in all directions when it comes to a case like this.

At least there's something we can say l'kaf zechut, if these posters were destroyed by our fellow Jews.

Ketiva vechatima tohva!

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Shy Guy, it is utterly ridiculous that you bring up Mr. Melamed as a proof for "Rabbi" Melamed. He may be very learned, but certainly not an "authority" to rely on. It seems that he reforms Torah to suit his arrogant purposes, money and power-grabbing, driving Bracha astray.

Esser Agaroth said...

Yes, of course, you would find a piece by R' Melamed. ;-)

Yes, there are most certainly various opinions on what to do with pesuqim. However, leKhathilah, to vandalize them?

ggggrrrrrrr!

I still think it's telling....

Esser Agaroth said...

Ariel, I think that Shy Guy was posting that teshuvah from Melamed on purpose.

;-)

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Ah :)

Shy Guy said...

Yes, Esser. Hence the smiley after the link.

Time to get ready for what you can never get ready enough for.

שנה טובה תכתיבו ותחתימו

Brother A said...

Vandalizing? Aren't the ones who posted the signs on public property considered vandals? Do they own the bus stops or cement blocks that they glued the signs to?

I think that you are using the word "vandalizing" but you don't know what it means.

Let's forget for a moment about who is right and who is wrong here about the Christian volunteers. There is a problem with these signs, put up by vandals (yes, people who deface public property) without identifying who they are. What are they afraid of? What credibility do they have without signing their names?

Esser Agaroth said...

Brother A,

Thanks for writing.

Yes. Vandalizing. Verses from the Torah were purposefully defaced, erased, blotted out. This is called bizu'i. Even Christians should have a problem with this.

Public property? Cement blocks, placed and moved around periodically by the IDF? And, pray tell, to which public is this shayach? The Jews who inherit and conquer the Land? In which case, who is in charge?

The Yishma'elim?

The IDF? After all the Yehudah and Shomron Jews do not have the same rights as other "Israeli citizens."

But, most of the last questions and statements are irrelevant.

Ask yourself this question, when there is a conflict between Israeli Law (and I don't know of any which covers this situation) and halakha (Torah Law), which takes precedence?

Brother A said...

Esser -

So I get it - every Jew is allowed to plaster his opinion, because he believes it is right based on the Torah, all over the public property (bus stops and cement blocks) that the public (all taxpayers) pay for. Makes a lot of sense.

You still didn't address taking responsibility for the signs and lack of name. Unless, of course it was you, or someone you know. It seems that you have a very nice pic of the sign, that couldn't possibly have been taken after the sign was posted, rather it was taken before the sign was posted, or perhaps while the sign was designed.

Regarding conflict between Israeli law and Halacha, what exactly is the conflict you are referring to? Is Halacha obligating you to post signs on bus stops to warn people? Why not a legitimate route such as an ad in a newspaper? Or is the content of your sign in violation of Israeli law in that it implies that vigilante action should be taken against the Christians?

Further regarding Israeli law, next time, before advising people to hang signs in the public, it may be a good idea to check into that point.

May Hashem judge you righteously during these days of repentance for all of the good that you do for the people of Israel.

Brother A said...

Ariel wrote: "It seems that he reforms Torah to suit his arrogant purposes, money and power-grabbing, driving Bracha astray."

This is a harsh accusation to make, especially during this time of year. Note that R. Melamed and his Yeshiva do not take any money from the Christian volunteers. He has no financial gain from Hayovel and Waller. He wrote about this about a year ago. It's a shame that you are shaming him based on your ignorance, what makes it "Hotza'at Shem Ra" which is very difficult to atone for.

I hope that Hashem judges you favorably, even though it seems that you don't have the ability to judge others favorably.

Esser Agaroth said...

The full translation of the poster is provided in the previous post.

The photo credit was provided. A friend sent me the photo he took.

I wish I knew who made the posters, so that I could tell them

Conflict? Now that you've read the translation, how about the gov't's passive allowance of missionizing? How about warning Jews about this, and the Christians' intent to make a strong hold on our Land?

Anything assur on this poster? Do you find Torah verses "against Israeli Law?" (Hold your breath. That's on its way.)

What's worse? Bizu'i HaTorah? Or posting on property which has no demarkation of ownership, nor are there any signs forbidding the posting of signs, which is the standard practice in the Shomron, anything from Arba Minim sales to services provided to event announcements.

"Halacha obligating you to post signs on bus stops to warn people?"

Yes, absolutely:

לא תעמוד על דם רעך.

...for starters.

"Why not a legitimate route such as an ad in a newspaper?"

In the Christian loving JPost? Or the Christian loving Arutz 7, founded by R' E. Melamed's mother?

Posters are not in the least bit illegitimate.

Brother A said...

Thank you Esser. I did understand the signs, because I saw them personally the morning after they were posted and am quite fluent in the Hebrew language.

Did anyone who posted the signs think of the halachic ramifications of putting pesukim on a sign that would be destroyed by the weather/ rain in a matter of days/ weeks?

Perhaps a motivation of those Jews (yes, it was Jews) who tore down those signs was simply the teching of חז"ל
ספר תורה שכתבו מין, ישרף.
Which means that if someone misuses and abuses the psukim of the Torah for an agenda which is anti-Torah, it has no holiness.

You haven't convinced me that plastering signs is legit, even if many others do it. Certainly, the authors who took no responsibility for the sign, are not legit, because they are afraid to identify themselves and therefore can't be trusted. If they believe that they are acting in the name of Halacha, let them have a Rabbi of stature in the Shomron sign on it. Perhaps they tried and couldn't get anyone to agree?

In my opinion, anyone seeing such a sign who has a slightly critical eye, would ask the same questions that I am asking. Since when does a sign plastered in the middle of the night at Tzomet Tapuach become a halachic authority? Are people really that stupid/ gullible/ naïve to believe everything they read plastered at Tzomet Tapuach/ Eli/ Bahad 3/ Jerusalem?

If the sign makers were serious, they would start a serious discussion with the local residents/ rabbis to rally support on behalf of their cause, after discussing their concerns with the Wallers and the Hayovel organization. Once they gained significant support among the communities, and rabbis, they would have some credibility so people would believe/ listen to them. But they didn't. Because they won't be able to get that credibility.

Signs were just a pathetic attempt that did nothing to advance their cause.

Esser Agaroth said...

"Discussions" have fallen on deaf ears.

Hmmm... Perhaps, because...

...כִּי הַשֹּׁחַד יְעַוֵּר עֵינֵי חֲכָמִים, וִיסַלֵּף דִּבְרֵי צַדִּיקִם. (דברים טז,יט)

Nice try. Your source is completely not shayach. No, not because I don't happen to like it. Actually, I do like it. It's just not shayach.

It's referring to inappropriate us by a min. A kosher Jew warning other Jews about the aveirahs being commiting, such as hasatah l'A"Z, violating "lo techonem," protecting Jewish souls and Jewish Land are very much appropriate purposes.

Your source was what allowed someone to destroy the missionary material included with the Tana"kh pesuqim, presented in this post.

What IS your motivation? You really care about pesuqim and "public property?"

What about the Wallers' true motivations revealed in the poster??

And, why aren't YOU identifying yourself?

Who's side are you on? The Torah? Or A"Z money? Or are you a mamlakhti on the side of the Erev Rav controlled gov't? Or just the last two?

Brother A said...

Dear Esser,

I am not identifying myself for the same reason that you are not, and that your blog is written anonymously. Because the internet allows that freedom. You benefit from that freedom more than I do.

However, I am not the one offering spiritual guidance and claiming to save the Jewish people from Christian influences, as the authors of the signs are. Therefore, there is no need for me to identify myself, but there is need for a self appointed halachik authority who claims to be saving the Jewish people to identify himself.

Whose side am I on? I am a Jewish resident of the Shomron who personally knows Tommy Waller and has spoken to him and his family at great length. Such a great length to know that the allegations in your signs are false. I am someone who sees the words of the prophecies being fulfilled by gentiles coming to my land and assisting Jews.

I am a Jew who believes that our goal in the world is to bring the word of Hashem to the whole world, and sees Hayovel as one of the ways to do it. I believe that our goal is to have the true Torah come forth from Jerusalem to the entire world.

It doesn't bother me that Waller said years ago that he wants to share his Jesus with me and you. He may want that deep inside, but he's clearly not doing that. I am also confident in my belief in Hashem that I will not accept Jesus, no matter who pushes it on me.

Get to know him. You may be surprised.

I am a Jew who believes that the Jewish people has enough enemies in the Moslem and liberal world. I believe that there is no need to add the Hayovel movement to that list of enemies. In fact, the Hayovel movement is assisting people like you and me settling the land by speaking with US politicians so that they stand by Israel against the tyrant Obama.

People like those who posted the signs, who refuse to see Hashem's guiding hand in bringing the redemption, make me upset. So call me whatever name you want. Call me mamlachti, or call me a Christian or any other kind of creative curse you can think of. I will continue praying for the Geula and will continue see Hashem's kindness in everything that He does for us.

May our prayers be fulfilled:
וידע כל פעול כי אתה פעלתו, ויבין כל יצור כי אתה יצרתו
It's time to realize that there are other people in the world and it's our job to be a light to them. It would be a shame to miss this opportunity to see our prayers being fulfilled, much as the anti-Zionist Haredi movement in pre-WWII Europe did because of their fear of the "hilonim" in Eretz Yisrael.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Brother A, are you (halachicly) Jewish? If yes, what exactly makes you think so?

Brother A said...

Ariel ben Yochanan: My father was Jewish, his father was Jewish, and his father was Jewish. So is my mother, and so was her mother, and her mother. We have a tradition in my family that my brothers and I can trace our lineage by direct patrilineal ancenstry, to Aharon Hakohen.

As written above, I live in one of the Jewish communities in the Shomron.

I hope that this answers your question.

I know it may be hard to believe, but there are Jews that think differently than you. I am one of them. Questioning my Judaism will not change the fact that not every Jew in the Shomron agrees with your approach. Questioning my Judaism will not make me go away. You may even have to deal with the arguments that I am raising in a rational manner rather than questioning my Judaism.

I, like Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, who you seem to be rather critical of, have no financial gain in having Christians volunteer in the Shomron. I do not own vinyards or fields that Christians work in. I support them because I believe it is the right thing to do, in order to spread Hashem's word in the world.

Wishing you success in your preparation for Yom Kippur.

Esser Agaroth said...

My identity is easily found, if you really want to know. I am hardly anonymous.

At this point, Brother A, I suggest that you start bringing halakhic sources, even R' Melamed's, to back up how exactly it is mutar the allow, and even encourage, such activities.

What halakhah allows Waller's son and daughter in law live in a caravan that a Jewish family should in?

How is that hills around Beracha are being threatened for lack of acceptance of the Xians? What halakha supports that?

My second suggestion is to review the Ramba"m's Hil. A"Z (A"Z, because there is no such thing as his Hil. Aku"m).

Here is a link the chs. 9-10, uncensored version.

Esau is just as dangerous, and most certain an enemy of Yisrael, as Yishma'el. Those only difference is their choices of weapons. Lately Esau has been using the smile, instead of the sword.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Besides, let's report to this thread too that the narrative according to which these xtians are good for us - is a lie. They are not good for us at all, they cause a damage to our economy in the region of 10 million shekels a volunteering season, maybe more. They steal our most precious low tech jobs by undercutting our people with their slave labor. No doubt the politicians who bring them in will face popular anger at election day.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...


B"H - Brother A: “Ariel ben Yochanan: My father was Jewish, his father was Jewish, and his father was Jewish. So is my mother, and so was her mother, and her mother. We have a tradition in my family that my brothers and I can trace our lineage by direct patrilineal ancenstry, to Aharon Hakohen. “
- AbY: You've overdone it, Brother A: To determine who is a Jew and who is not patrilineal linage doesn’t matter in Judaism. As you don’t seem to know anything about Judaism, and your Western value-system reflects this fact, I continue to think that you are not Jewish, that you only pose as a Jew on the Internet in your cherished anonymity and so I am not going to debate with you. I only debate with Jewish Jews.

Brother A said...

You have ridiculed Rav Melamed's position above without providing sources for your arguments. You have accused him of being blinded by bribery (Motzi Shem Ra) without pointing out what specific bribery was taken. I have already pointed out that Rav Melamed has committed not to take money for his Yishuv or for his Yeshiva from Hayovel. (He even wrote this publicly in Revivim.) The fact that a farmer from his community uses Hayovel labor does not influence his judgment. Sure, the farmer makes money from them, but R. Melamed doesn't.

Despite your baseless ridicule of a highly knowledgeable person, who happens to have spoken at length to the Hayovel volunteers, I will engage in a Halachic discussion. Are the members of Hayovel idolators? Which idols do they serve? Is a belief in non- Catholic Christianity prohibited for gentiles? Do the volunteers believe that Jesus is a prophet, or a god? Do they believe in the trinity? Are Moslems idolators? The Rambam says that they aren't. What would the Rambam say about these volunteers?

Regarding jobs, Ariel - have you discussed this topic with the farmers? Do you know how manpower- intensive the harvest is? Do you know how difficult it is to find seasonal laborers in large quantities that are willing to work for a month out of every year? What will these low tech Jewish laborers do to support themselves during the rest of the year?

Esser: Your choice to write this blog anonymously already answers the question as to your identity - you don't want to take responsibility for what you write, much like the self appointed halacha authority/ savior of the Jewish people/ vandal who wrote and published the signs.

I won't bother to take the time to find out who you are by doing a Google search, even if you maintain that it is easy to find. It really doesn't interest me.

Brother A said...

Oh, Ariel: Excellent argument there. You read the first sentence about my father and not the second or third.

Go back and read again.

OK, did you read again? You saw that my mother is Jewish as well? Excellent.

In case you didn't understand, I was pointing out that I am Jewish as well as the fact that I am a Kohen.

But that's OK, no need for you to debate with me anyway. I recommend that you not waste time debating with me and learn how to read English.

Regarding only debating with "Jewish Jews," (is there another kind of Jews????) it is unfortunate, because Jewish scholars throughout the generations debated with non-Jews. Look at the book of Kuzari, which is a discussion between a Jew and a non-Jew. But it's probably better that you debate only with Jews. That way you will only make a poor representation of Judaism (also known as a Hillul Hashem) to 15 million people rather than 5 billion.

P.S. Even if I disclose who I am, that will not prove to you that I am Jewish. But the facts here seem not to make a difference to you, as you support a sign based on presumptions, not on facts.

Esser Agaroth said...

Brother A, No and No.

You are twisting my words, but, of course, I expected that.

You may be "quite fluent" in Hebrew, but English apparently needs work.

Please review the definition of motzi shem ra'.

I stated my sources. You have yet to state any which are even remotely shayach.

I gave you the Ramba"m's position. See Hil. A"Z 9:4 (uncensored version).

For someone who is "quite fluent" in Hebrew, why do insist that A"Z means only idolatry??

Many have tried to separate protestants and Catholics and Evangelicals for years.

They have the same books of mythology, and the same narratives.

You obviously did not read the link I provided.

False mashiach, false deity, intercessor, etc. Some have even picked up on the idea of a deceased "rebbe" (leHavdil).

Since you bring up the Ramba"m, no, he would not have them here, and certainly not getting to live here. We must even have some semblance of separateness from gerei toshav. Qal wehomer from those who are forbidden to be here in there first place.

Even if one holds that they can be here, that individual is suborning A"Z, as these people are practicing it in the fields and in the vineyards.

YOU have clearly been taken in.

Brother A said...

Taken in? I beg your pardon?

I did read your link.

See attached, from the Rav that you like to ridicule and accuse of taking bribery.

Yes, I know the definition of Motzie Shem Ra. Please explain why spreading falsehoods publicly does not fall into this category.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=17125

As for the position of Rambam - the Rambam associated Christianity with what we now know as Catholicism. In case you need to brush up on world history, Protestantism wasn't around in the times of the Rambam.

Sincerely,
A Hakohen

Esser Agaroth said...

This isn't going anywhere.

I answered these questions already.

See above.

OK. I'll make it easy for you.

I never said that R' Melamed took a bribe.

I already listed [only a few] reasons why the Christians of today would still be considered A"Z.

Esau is tricky, always changing his strategies and masks.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - It's a question of sovereignty. In Judaism Hashem Is King! In Zionism He is replaced with the State: Be very careful with attaching your hopes and aspirations to the State, to anything other than Hashem, our G-d!

Devash said...

This whole thing about posting notices on public property is a specious argument. If a sinkhole appeared in that area and someone put up a notice warning of the imminent danger and it saved a life, the person would be a hero. And conversely, not notifying people of an imminent and present danger to life and/or limb is an act of gross negligence.

The real disagreement here is over whether HaYovel Ministries constitutes such a threat to Jews, albeit on a spiritual level, which according to Jewish tradition is even more dire than a physical threat.

The person posting as "Brother A" is one of those people who is more interested in his own feelings on the subject, on his own perceptions, on his own judgment and interpretations.

Realizing the fallibility of such things, the true Jewish neshamah submits its feelings, perceptions, judgments and interpretations to the Creator's wisdom and instead of conforming them to his own understanding, he conforms himself to the Torah's standards.

Proverbs 3.5: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely upon your own understanding."

I've heard this fallacious reasoning before from those involved with missionaries that their faith is strong and they can't be swayed, but there are two problems with that. 1) The missionaries target the weakest among us and who is looking out for them? 2) No one is immune which is why Devarim 13 describes several scenarios in which one may be enticed and in no case does it take into consideration whether one is swayed to believe or not. All that matters to Hashem is that the attempt was made. And we are commanded to "remove the evil from your midst."

Those with true Jewish neshamas who care about their fellow Jews and who care about the Torah and about Truth know instinctively what the situation requires and are willing to submit to the Torah's authority in the matter and they do not waste time trying to rationalize or justify doing just the opposite.

All this talk of fulfilling prophecy and being a light and bringing redemption, etc. it's all a red herring coming straight from the mouths of the missionaries and being parroted back by gullible Jews. None of these things appears in any list of the 613 mitzvot. These ideas are being assimilated from the xian influence. These are what they consider to be their own 'mitzvot' – lehavdil!

Brother A's own words condemn the Wallers because, at the same time that they made this very revealing remark about wanting the Jews to "meet this J-zuz that we know," the agenda was made clear that the intention was to keep quiet in the beginning while they built relationships and caused the natural Jewish barriers to be lowered and only at some future time would this opportunity present itself.

According to the halachah, it does not even matter whether the leopard has changed his spots, we are forbidden to believe him and to risk our fellow Jews for their sake.

Missionary activity aside, the fact is that Jews are enabling goyim to come from a foreign land not only to perform avodah zarah in the holy land which greatly angers HKB"H, but they are enabling them a foothold in the land to settle here and to continue to perform their avodah zarah here and spread it to others, G-d forbid; to make their next generations believe that they are the masters here, just like the Arabs and are encouraging them to continue to imagine that one day the Jews might really accept their false Messiah and worship with them against HKB"H which is the worst kind of chillul Hashem.

There are no words that will convince the smug and the arrogant who place themselves above everything and everyone else.

When the Olam HaSheker gives way finally to Olam HaEmet, then all those attached to the sheker, whether Jew or gentile, will disappear right along with it. Their day is just about done.

Esser Agaroth said...

Devash, Thanks for summing everything up, and connecting the dots, as you do so well.

You're absolutely right about not being able to convince anyone already "involved" with these poeple. However, it was suggested by someone this morning that those Jews reading this, who are only now learning about the activities in the Shomron, can be shown the truth.

Geula Girl said...

I am obviously very behind in commenting so I will address on a few points brought by Brother A.

Let's start with the fact that based on the opinion of R. Melamed, as stated in an A7 article, "believing that 'oto ha'ish' [Jesus] is son of a deity and the messiah" is a form of idolatry, which makes, Tommy Waller and his volunteers idolators. Not only are the Wallers and their volunteers idolators, they also want to be allowed to live in Israel permanently, as they believe the land also belongs to them as they are "grafted into the house of Israel". Waller's documentary about his life leading up to volunteer here was titled "coming home".

You say "I support them because I believe it is the right thing to do, in order to spread Hashem's word in the world."
How does this spread Hashem's word in the world. On the contrary it spreads idolatry in the land of Israel. It also entrenches the xians even more into their false beliefs because they believe, and tell their fellow xians back home, that the fact Jews are opening their homes and hearts to them is a sign that 1,"the veil has been removed from our eyes" and now we are able to accect yeshu as our l-rd and savior and 2, that yeshu is about to return.

You wrote
" I am someone who sees the words of the prophecies being fulfilled by gentiles coming to my land and assisting Jews. "
Jews don't live according to prophecies, we live according to halachah and the halachah says
Not to make a covenant with idol worshippers.
Not to favour an idol-worshippers.
Not to permit idolaters to live in our land.
To destroy idolatry and all that is made for it.

Fellow Jews, if this isn't stopped now, you may very well end up with xian enclaves within each yishuv. Either they will worship yeshu in the synagogues or they will build their own houses of worship in each yishuv. Their children will go to gan, school and yeshiva with your children. Is this the future you dreamed of when you made aliyah?

Esser Agaroth said...

Geula Girl,

Thanks for taking the time to write.

Your explanation was excellent, and covered all of the important points.!

Brother A said...

Geula Girl and Devash both point out, accurately that this issue is a Halachic issue. There are people who are experts in Halacha, called Rabbis. There are no shortage of Rabbis in the Shomron. In fact, every (religious) community in the Shomron has at least one, as far as I am aware.

What is suspiciously absent from the signs that the vandals posted all over the Shomron is an opinion of a Rabbi. Why is that? Was it hard to find one in the Shomron? Clearly they are aware of the dangers Hayovel Ministries that the commenters above are so convinced of? Are the Rabbis afraid of warning the communities of the "truth" and eminent dangers?

When I saw the sign claiming to provide Halachic warnings, I looked for the authority behind it. OK, there was no Rabbinic Halachic authority. But someone? Some person signing his name to it? Nope, nothing. No one is taking responsibility. What are you afraid of?

You are so certain that they are right, so stand behind it! There is such a clear spiritual danger, as they are "murdering Jewish souls!?" why don't you put your name on it to give it credibility.

Once upon a time, about 2000 years ago, there was an unfortunate situation in the land that we are lucky enough to live in. There was a Roman siege on Jerusalem, and the Jews were trapped in the city. The Jews had enough supplies to outlast the siege.

There were some Jews who "knew better" and decided that the Jews needed to fight. This Jews, also known as "Biryonim," burnt the stores of supplies to cause the Jews to fight. The problem was, the central Halachic authority, led by Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai was against the Biryonim. Rabbi Yochana Ben Zakkai, in a heroic move, managed to save some of the Torah scholars, but Jerusalem was destroyed. Perhaps history would have played out a bit differently if the Biryonim had less power and influence.

Friends, I will continue to take down the signs if I see them again. I will continue to do it in broad daylight as I have been doing. Some followers of Abba Sikra already approached me while doing this, but I am not afraid. The Biryonim have even taken my picture taking down signs, as if removing their vandalism is some sort of violation of the law.

My hope is that if you want to convey a message, do it right. Use the right channels, and stop disgracing the residents of the Shomron. It's a shame to destroy what we're trying so hard to build in the Jewish resettlement of the Shomron.

Esser Agaroth said...

Who's Abba Sikra? Sounds like I'd like to meet him.

BTW, where do Caleb Waller and his blushing bride live?

I may want to pay them a visit,...you know,...to welcome then to the neighborhood.

Brother A said...

Esser - in case you weren't joking about Abba Sikra, you can Google him. Gittin 56a, if you care to read Aramaic.

I have a feeling that if he were alive today, and he would argue with me, he would question my Jewishness rather than try to use factual information and logical reasoning, like some of your religious readers do. Apparently fanatics exists in every generation and have consistently been doing damage to the Jewish people.

Note from the narrative in Gittin that I referenced in my previous comment that Abba Sikra, although being referred to as the leader of the Biryonim, was not able to control the mob that he led. He was afraid that allowing his uncle RYBZ to exit Jerusalem would cause his followers to kill him (Abba Sikra)!

Sounds similar to today - a varied bunch of people who claim to act in the name of the Halacha and the best interests of the Jewish people, but refuse to take upon themselves any authority.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - I always give my name, Brother A. When there is a phenomena of anonymity, you pointed out in one of your older posts, there is fear. I think you are right in saying so, but I don't think it is the fault of the victim(s) you make fun of, rather of those who impose this fear on them. As you claim to live in the Shomron you'll know that there is a lot of "power politics" going on here, there is a difference between those who are "liked" and those who are not and many have a lot to loose. One hears horror stories of fines being sent out to "enemies" of administrations, water being cut off for the same reason, etc., so if I were you I'd show more comprehension on how people behave in a depressed zone, where many jobs are government jobs and in order to have or preserve them one has to show loyalty to the establishment. As far as the "rabbis" are concerned, there is a problem there you see, because many of them are not reliable or not rabbis at all. This area is Religious Zionist and I came to the understanding that Religious Zionism is Reform, in as much as: a) it replaces Hashem with the State as the sovereign and b) it re-writes its "halacha" to make Torah suit society as they see it as opposed to the original Jewish purpose of making society Torah compatible. The fact that you keep pushing this xtian issue here is as sad as it can get. Go and study Judaism's sources. I am not going into details here because this is a public space and because I am not even certain that you are or still a Jew, as you speak alien talk to Judaism. In any case I need to and I have the courage to re-state here that Mr. Melamed makes a terrible error and he is far too well versed in Torah not to know that. He is knowingly driving himself and his community of Bracha astray. Why the people in Bracha don't speak up? I don't know for sure, but I've heard stories of people who are terrified there. He also drives Jews out from the xtian hill. In fact my understanding is that there is only one left there now as we speak.

Esser Agaroth said...

Brother A, Yes, I was joking. ;-)

Anyway, countless sources have been provided throughout the comments on this post, not to mention the Wallers' own words on the previous post.

I stopped trying to convince many comments ago.

BTW, just curious, what is YOUR halakhic authority for taking these posters down?

Are the Wallers saving you money, so you won't have to hire Jews?

Other? Did R' E. Melamed tell you to?

Any word on the whereabouts of Caleb and young Mrs. Waller?

G'mar Tov!

Esser Agaroth said...

Brother A, The votes are in. My readers have voted but a rather large majority that you must be a goy.

If your claim that you were born Jewish is truth, then that would make you either an A"Z, an apostate, or just a tinoq shenishba, depending on your background.

Personally, I voted that you are Jewish, deeply buried in a galuth mentality.

Thanks for participating in this discussion at Esser Agaroth.

Do come again!

:-)

Brother A said...

Esser,

I'm sorry to hear that you and your intelligent readers have revoked my Judaism. That has only happened to me once before in my life when someone called me a Christian when I was taking down signs that vandals had posted in the Shomron. I guess you and Ariel feel that Hashem has given you that authority, as well as the authority to give psak halachot, anonymously, and without knowing the facts regarding the situation.

As mentioned above, I make no money from the Hayovel volunteer work in the Shomron. As mentioned above, I don't own vinyards or any other agricultural fields. If I did, though, I would be happy to have the folks help out.

Regarding the whereabouts of the Waller family, although I know where they are located, I will not disclose that information to anonymous people such as yourself, who have already supported written threats to their lives, as in the signs which you support with a large "X" on the face of the father of the Waller clan. It just doesn't make sense for me to disclose that information to you, as I may be held liable if anything were to happen to them through a sorry follower of Abba Sikra.

Esser Agaroth said...

Threats on their lives, huh?

That's a pretty hefty accusation.

I suggest to you, once again, that you work on the nuances of the English language. ;-)

So, when you visit the Wallers, do you give them gifts? On Sundays? On their false deity/Messiah, intercessor's birthday? On the pagan Estrus, re-birthing festival?

Just curious.

Esser Agaroth said...

Brother A, I almost forgot,...enjoy your soup! :-)

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Now that you mention it Brother A, and this definitely is not a threat, I do fear bloodshed in this matter, should this provocation not stop on its own account. If that happens that will be a terrible day for the xtians and the Jews as we will be thrown back to the days of the blood libel. In conclusion, it is as much in your interest, in the xtians' interest as it is in mine to stop this pushing of the provocation any further. Point one. Point two, the massive introduction of slave labor destroys our local jobs market and damages us to the tune of around ten million shekels in lost wages and the inducted in local business. Why is it "good" for us is difficult to grasp. Three, Mr. Melamed must correct his "line" and re-establish the WELL KNOWN halachot we all know on this. He must apologize to the people of Bracha he causes as of now to live in fear. If you are in contact with him, as I suspect you are, you must convey this message to him: The people aren't buying his nonsense, he is loosing out big time on this.

Geula Girl said...

Brother A:

A Jew doesn't need a psak halachah by a halachic authority to follow the 613 mitzvoth in which we find,

Not to make a covenant with idol worshippers.
Not to favour an idol-worshippers.
Not to permit idolaters to live in our land.
To destroy idolatry and all that is made for it.

Rabbi Melamed already determined that these xians still follow a form of idolatry as he stated in an A7 article. Why do these mitzvoth not apply? There are Rabbis who are against the Wallers. They have decided for their own communities in the Shomron and they aren't featured in the media like Melamed.

Devash said...

Committee of Binyamin Region Rabbis.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

B"H - Here you can find a letter from Rav. Zuriel concerning the matter.

Ariel ben Yochanan said...

Rav. Moshe Zuriel On Xtians Being Bought In To The Shomron

http://thetorahrevolution.blogspot.co.il/2013/09/rav-moshe-zuriel-on-xtians-bought-in-to.html

בס"ד כ"ד חשון, תשע"ב

לכבוד אחים יקרים, תושבי יש"ע, ה' יברכם!

נשאלתי בענין מה היחס הראוי בו צריכים להתייחס לנוצרים הבאים לגור בינינו. זו היא שאלה קשה, כי מצד אחד הם מצהירים שברצונם לעזור לנו במלחמתנו נגד אויבינו הערבים שנוקטים בשיטות טרור נגדנו, ויש כאן שאלה של פקוח נפש. ואנו צריכים לכל עזרה שאפשר להשיג.

אבל מצד שני, יש "פקוח נפש" אחר. שלא יזיקו לנו באמונתנו. שלא יצודדו נפשות שיתקרבו יותר ויותר לרעיון הנצרות. חשש זה מתחזק יותר לענין הצעירים שלנו, נערים ונערות, שאם מדברים אליהם בעדינות ובנימוסים יפים, עלולים להתפתות. ויש כבר שמועות שחלק של המהגרים הנוצרים שבאים לגור ביש"ע, הם מסיונרים, והם מחלקים חוברות חומר הסברה וגם בשיחות אישיות מסבירים שבח ותהלה לאותו האיש, יש"ו. ויש כאן סכנה גדולה אפילו אם היה מדובר בנפש אדם בודד ההולך לאיבוד. כל שכן שהחשש הוא לרבים, ולא "רק" לאדם אחד.

צריכים אנו לחזור לדברי הרמב"ם (הל' עבודה זרה, סוף פרק עשירי) הקובע שאין לתת לשום גוי לגור ביננו עד שיקבל עליו ז' מצוות בני נח. וברור ברמב"ם (הלכות מאכלות אסורות, פרק יא הלכה ז) שאמנם הישמעאלים אינם מוגדרים כעובדי עבודה זרה. אבל הנוצרים הם בהחלט נחשבים עובדי עבודה זרה.

חשוב לציין דברי החזון איש, שאפילו לפי דעת המקילים, זה רק אמור אם מקיים ז' מצוות בני נח מפני שהקב"ה ציוה אותנו בהם בהר סיני. ואם הנכרי מקיים המצוות מפני הכרע שכלו אין זה נחשב "מקיים" (כך כתב הרמב"ם, בהלכות מלכים, סוף פרק ח). לכן כותב "חזון איש" (זרעים, דף 298 פסקא ג) יש לחשוש שהנכרים הללו לא ידביקו אותנו בכפירתם, כלומר במה שהם כופרים בסמכות של מעמד הר סיני. עד כאן דבריו. די לנו הכופרים הישראליים. אננו צריכים לייבוא נוסף של כופרים נכרים.

לכן מוטל על כל איש ואשה להזהר מהנוצרים האלו. אמנם יש להתנהג עמהם בנימוס וכבוד, בדרך ארץ (עיין מדרש קהלת רבה, פרשה יא). ודאי חלילה להזיק להם בגוף או ממון. אבל חלילה להתחבר אליהם, חלילה להשכיר להם דירה. חלילה לתת להם עבודה. עדיף לנו שיעזבו את ארצנו.

כן דברי האוהב אתכם, ורוצה בטובתכם באמת.

משה צוריאל
מחבר "אוצרות הרב קוק

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